Unfortunately, your quotes of John 4:8 and Matthew 22 exemplify the problem. You've taken two verses and used them to show what your particular belief in the Bible is.

Well, if you have ever read the bible, I'm sure you're aware of the hundreds of verses that show God to be vengeful, hateful, spiteful, mean-spirited, murderous, etc.

Leviticus 25:44, ("As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves.").

Leviticus 21:9 ("And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." ).

Deuteronomy 22:22-24
Leviticus 20:10-11
Leviticus 20:13
and so on and so on.

I'm sure there will be a bunch of people ready to defend their God or their belief but I'm not bashing their belief or their God.

Rather, I'm simply saying that it isn't too inconceivable for someone to take different passages from either the Old or New Testament and infer the meaning to be intolerance, hate or whatever.

If you're going to quote verses from the Bible and use them to show God's love, it's a little disingenuous to act surprised or upset when someone takes an entirely different verse to show something entirely different than love.

Thank you, Mr. Polk! And to follow up on J's post: Old Testament - Gods Laws; New Testament - God's fulfillment of the Laws, AND a testament of His love for us, which pretty much what God is all about.

Personally, I think this God you speak of is a spiteful Deity, who shows love only for those who revel in his image. If we decide to have our own free will, we will wind up burning in Hell for worshiping the Devil, no matter the religious beliefs we have. Forgive me, but I'd rather believe in a Deity that allows Free Will without consequences if you don't want to believe in him or her. There is a very old saying out there, that one man's God is another man's Devil, so while I believe that any individual God or Deity is not much more than a crutch that Man himself created to provide a quick and easy resolution to the most difficult problems he faces, having a Deity to believe in and "Rules" to follow is a good thesis on life. Not sure which Biblical verse this is from, but "Do Unto Others As Thou Wouldst Have Done Unto Thine Own Self" is probably one of my all-time favorite verses from the Bible. It says a lot without really saying a whole lot, and sadly, not many people these days are doing that, as they are far too concerned about themselves first and foremost. A similar Pagan proverb says it all in one simple verse: "An It Harm None, Do What Ye Will." Too many people are doing harm to others to benefit themselves, and that needs to stop.

J - you can't take the Bible out of context. And you can't pick and choose which things to believe in the Bible. You do or you don't. You can't pick these verses over here and be like oh look these are true but set out another set and say they're false. This reminds me of my History professor who likes to use the Bible as a reference such asa the immaculate conception or Gabriel coming down with messages from God, yet turns around 3 minutes later and calls Jesus just a "prophet," but not the Son of God. Either you believe the Bible, or you don't. You can't just pick and choose. And the Bible tells us that God loves us. You can't just ignore that part.

Jade Polk,

As I stated earlier, I'm not trying to bash anyone's God or their belief, however I did point out and am still saying, that the Bible is extremely vague and contradictory. It's not incomprehensible to see why someone, anyone, can read the Old and/or New Testaments, the Quran or the Torah and come up with an entirely different understanding than you or anyone else comes up with.

As far as taking things out of context.........WOW, you've got to be kidding!!! The Bible itself (and the Quran) is out of context. Unless you've read an original (pretty hard to do since an original doesn't exist) how do you know you're reading what God inspired. English versions of the Bible weren't translated until the 1400's and the King James Version didn't come into existence until the mid 1600's. Simply taking any quote from the Bible can be inferred to be out of context. Now there are more than 30 "versions" of a copy of a copy of a copy and so on. If you're not reading in Hebrew and/or Aramaic, you're probably taking something out of context.

The Gospels of the New Testament (Mark, Matthew, Luke, John) are all second-hand accounts at best. The earliest of the Apostles (supposedly Mark) wrote about Jesus 40 years AFTER he died. John (If written by the Apostle John) was written when John was 110 years old.

As far as picking and choosing things to believe in............Once again..........wow!! God absolutely DID condone slavery (if you believe in the Bible). If He wanted to just give everyone free will, that would have taken about one sentence to make it known. What would be the point of actually telling people where to get their slaves from and what to do with them when they were disobedient (Exodus 21:5-6)? Why wasn't there any mention of where to pick up a good cup of coffee or where a good place to grow asparagus was? Thousands of pages of text could have been spared, simply by saying "you have free will", if that was the intention. But thousands of awful things to do to people were specified quite clearly.

Faith in God is one thing. Belief in a particular book is quite another. I've never had any problem believing that there could be a God. But I do have a problem with all of Creation being explained in a contradictory book.

Arguing involves rational thought. Those that believe in God and the bible are irrational in their thought. (That's because believers are arguing a point that can neither be proven or unproven). Hence, arguing with them is pointless because you will never get anywhere. The only "good" that comes from arguing with a Christian or other religious nut-job is that they can return to their respective groups and tell a story of how they faced "the lions in the den" and stood their ground in their own beliefs. They will then be deified, but not completely because the bible says not to create false gods.

Then most of the time when one attempts to "argue" with a religious nut-job, it will wind up that you'll be talking to one of those idiots like cmo2 saying, "Obviously, you don't know God (as well as I do)" and then have him judge you - like the bible says a Christian shouldn't.

These bible-thumping, verse-quoting Nimrods are pointless and arguing with them is pointless...it just gives them some sort of self-perceived "belief justification" ammunition that they take back to church. Please everyone, stop conversing with them, because you won't get anywhere...it's like speaking to a deaf person and then yelling at them hoping that the louder volume will help them to hear.

(they're a waste of time)

P.S. I look forward to the replies laden with bible verses!

Christians are not looking for personal self-justification. They aren't supposed to be, anyway. Just know, Jack Palance, that God loves everyone, and that's a fact that does not need a Bible verse to back it up.

Boy, Jack, looks like we struck a nerve. Nimrod? Nut-job? You've proven Mr. Polk's point wonderfully. I don't believe that I said "as well as I do" - please don't put words in my mouth. If you're going to criticize me, then at the very least, do it truthfully. All that I see is ranting - nothing truthful or solid, so no, I will not be throwing bible verses at you - I don't believe that you will look at them rationally. Reply if you like, but my end of this conversation is finished.

J, no, He did NOT condone slavery. This subject was just recently studied in my Sunday School class. He ALLOWED slavery. If Mark wrote the book of Mark & John wrote the book of John, how are they second hand accounts? Not true. What I will say is this: No one disputes the writings of Caesar, Plato, Thucydides or Aristotle, although the earliest copy attained for any one of them was at least 1000 years after the original was written. But there are 5700 identical greek copies of the New Testament that date back as far as 350 AD and society wants to call them untrue? It's called picking and choosing what to believe, which again, is your free will. But please, don't call my God a hateful, vengeful God in one sentence and then state that you're not trying to "bash anyone's God" because then YOU have made the largest contradiction.

cmo2,

My point of John and Mark writing the Gospels, were that they had to be in their 70's or 100's at a time when people lived to be 30. In Luke 1:1-4, the author admits to being an interpreter and not an eye witness. None of the four canonical gospels are written as eyewitness accounts.

Identical copies 350 years later after Jesus died. Well, you proved your point. Can't argue with that.

Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere in the entire Bible that talks about Satan killing anyone? I don't recall ever seeing a verse that talks about Satan doing harm to anyone. All the fire, pestilence and killing seems to be coming from God, according to the Bible.

I said, "Well, if you have ever read the bible, I'm sure you're aware of the hundreds of verses that show God to be vengeful, hateful, spiteful, mean-spirited, murderous, etc."
The Bible points that out rather matter-of-factly:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

"Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." (Psalms 18:7-11)

"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)

"And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." (Deuteronomy 28:63)

"And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." (Joshua 10:11)

"AND Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." (Leviticus 10:1-2)

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" (Lamentations 3: 38-39)

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)

"So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men." (I Chronicles 21:14)

"And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." (Numbers 16:32-35)

J, I'm afraid you took at least one verse (Isaiah 45:7) out of its Biblical context. Try not to fall into the trap so many people (including Christians like myself) fall to by simply reading one verse and taking it literally as-is. What anyone who reads the Bible needs to do in order to understand a verse properly in its context is to read the passage the verse is from. Also, every single verse you stated is from the Old Testament. The Old Testament does give proof of God's power and that He is the final Judge of all things. However, the New Testament states how God wants us to join Him in Heaven so he will not have to punish us for what we deserve since we are sinners (and that's EVERYONE), and also what to do after becoming a follower of Jesus Christ.

GSane,

You must admit there are Orthodox and Fundamental Christians that view the entire Bible literally. Word for word.

However, I don't quite understand how you (or any Christian for that matter) know when a particular verse is to be taken literally and when it isn't. I often hear Christians comment, as you did, that "that's the Old Testament." What exactly does that mean?

If Genesis is taken literally why isn't Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc. also taken literally?

The fundamental problem for me, is that every Christian I've ever encountered had a set of beliefs long before they ever read the Bible. Whenever they read a particular passage that didn't fit their beliefs, they interpreted it as metaphorical or something not literal. I've never met one Christian who has read the Bible without any preconceived notions and thought it all made sense. Never.

That's the difference between the Scientists and Christians:

Scientists

1) Form a Hypothesis
2) Gather facts and test hypothesis
3) Draw conclusions

Christians

1) Draw conclusion
2) Find facts to support conclusion (ignore all others)